Do you know as much as you think you do about Ruffed Grouse?

Full transcript for Episode 58: Do you know as much as you think you do about Ruffed Grouse?.

Tyce

Hey, folks. Welcome to the Bird Dog Podcast. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you guys really enjoy this show. I had a great time sitting down with Mr. Ben Jones with the Ruffed Grouse Society and American Woodcock Society. , man, he's, , the CEO over there, and they're doing a lot of awesome stuff for ruffed grouse. , I learned a lot in this episode, , talking about the bird it's self We, we went into all sorts of stuff when it comes to ruffed grouse and, , , building the right, , environment on the landscape, , so ruffed grouse can flourish. So that's really what, , the Ruffed Grouse Society is about is conservation and getting the landscape to, to, , a certain, , a certain way that ruffed grouse will flourish. And so... And if you're a ruffed grouse hunter, you probably have a little bit of idea of what that looks like. So if you're not a ruffed grouse hunter, and you wanna be able to hunt these amazing birds, I would listen to this podcast because we're gonna talk about what the landscape should look like to house ruffed grouse. So I really appreciate the time Ben spent with me in this podcast. Hope you guys enjoy it. We did talk about dogs a little bit and, , what he has, so listen to the podcast to find out, , what kind of bird dogs he is running. And, , and get involved. If you wanna help start a chapter of Ruff-Ruffed Grouse Society in Utah, there is opportunity to do that. So check out their website, check them out on social media, wherever you can find them, and, , learn more about them. And if you want, reach out to Ben to get involved with Ruffed Grouse here in Utah. I think the closest one, , the closest chapter I saw was in Colorado, so we need some people to step up to the plate, , or donate some money to the Ruffed Grouse Society to help keep something alive that we love for generations to come. This is kind of a long-term investment in the future, right? So landscapes just don't develop overnight, but they are spending a ton of money and a ton of time on the ground trying to make better places for sportsmen like you and me. And before or after you listen to this podcast, man, I would love it if you'd jump on and give us a follow on Instagram, Utah Bird Dog Training, The Bird Dog Podcast, and Field Bred Golden Retrievers. We're gonna post a bunch of cool content on there about our dogs and the podcast when one, , launches, so you guys can find that. So we really appreciate you guys helping us out there. You can also find our websites at those same places, fieldbredgoldentretrievers.com. We are holding off on our deposits right now. , we have some females that are transitioning, and, , we kinda had some older females retiring and some new young females transitioning into our breeding program. So, , we do have some deposits on some dogs. So we are t- we are taking on a wait list, so you can get on our wait list, but we're not accepting deposits. So, , but, , we really appreciate you guys, , looking at our dogs and looking at our websites and looking at our social media. So, , also, if you really wanna help us out and you need some dog stuff, go ahead and look at the show notes and the different links. , those, when you go through those links and you purchase some stuff, it helps us out, helps, , you know, put a little bit of back into our pocket 'cause this stuff does take time. It takes money to host, , the podcast and to, , edit them and do all these type of things. So it's, it does take time of, in our day. So if you wanna continue to have these podcasts, man, if you... And, and you need some of these products, go ahead and use those links, and that really helps us out. So appreciate you guys. Hope you guys enjoy this one, and, , we'll talk to you later. Have a great day. All right, folks, welcome to the Bird Dog Podcast. Today I have on the podcast with me Ben Jones with the Ruffed Grouse Society and American Woodcock Society. , Ben, thanks for coming on the show today. Thanks for spending some time. , we- we're, we're recording this obviously live and, , it took a minute to kinda get our computers working. Couple of outdoorsmen trying to do technology. We're kinda rookie here, but we're fig-

Ben Jones

really good point. We should be proud of our inability to overcome technology, although here we are, so we did it.

Tyce

Yeah, we did it, man. We're here, so,

Ben Jones

Tice. Appreciate the invite

Tyce

no, I appreciate it. I know you're a busy guy, and well, it seems like everyone these days are busy, right? I, I don't know, I don't know anyone that's really not busy, so

Ben Jones

Yeah. Fun to do

Tyce

but I'm happy to... I'm excited to hear about what you have going on, , get to know you a little better, and hear about your story, and so yeah, appreciate it. So,

Ben Jones

Yeah, glad to be here, man

Tyce

, where are you located at?

Ben Jones

I'm in South Central Pennsylvania.

Tyce

South Central Pennsylvania. Okay

Ben Jones

, RGS and AWS, Rough Ground Society, American Woodcock Society, our headquarters state is Pennsylvania,

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

has been for about, oh, in our 60, almost 65-year history, we've been in Pennsylvania for at least 40 of

Tyce

Wow

Ben Jones

So yeah, long, long time headquarters state, Pennsylvania. Our office is over just north of Pittsburgh in southwestern Pennsylvania. I'm sitting right now not far from the state capital of Pennsylvania, Harrisburg. Really good jumping-off point for a lot of the business that we do, which we'll get to this later. Mostly right now east of the Mississippi

Tyce

. So the Rough Grass Society, I, I got on... These dang flies in here. , so the Rough Grass Society, it's been around for 60 years. Is that what you said?

Ben Jones

Yeah, founded in October of So yeah, we're coming up on 65

Tyce

Who, who, who found, did you f-, who founded it?

Ben Jones

So it was some gentlemen in, , of all places, Monterey, Virginia. And a lot of people don't think of, , ruffed grouse when they think of, the state of Virginia, but, , long time grouse enthusiasts in the mountains, , in the Shenandoah, , in Virginia and points south. We can talk about that a bit too, the, the Southern Appalachian ruffed grouse, really cool. But anyway, founded in Monterey, Virginia, the founders were really interested, and some of them were upland hunters, all the more hunters. They weren't just grouse hunters. And so they really founded RGS with an interest in learning more about woodland wildlife conservation and habitat use. So if you think of 1961, , wildlife science was still in its

Tyce

Infancy, yeah.

Ben Jones

there was still a lot to learn. But right from those founding days, they, they said in the, some of the founding documents that this was never just about shooting ruffed grouse or, or gunning. It was about learning more about their conservation and tying science to work on the ground, which is our tenant still today.

Tyce

Mm-. That's cool. That's awesome.

Ben Jones

do

Tyce

So how long have you been involved with it then?

Ben Jones

I've been, ,

Tyce

'Cause you're the president, right?

Ben Jones

Yeah, on staff if,

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

you... I've been a member for a long time and interested in RGS and, and knowing about what it did. As an avid hunter personally and growing up in Pennsylvania, I certainly knew about the Rough Grouse Society. But, , I became s- , CEO in June of 2018.

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

I just, I just passed year number eight

Tyce

. How did how did, how did, that happen? How did... Sorry, that was kind of a side note. How did you, how did you become the... Is it a voted thing, or is it just like, "Hey, I'm gonna take it over," or what's that, what's that look like?

Ben Jones

a hostile takeover, like, "Give me that."

Tyce

Yeah. Let me run with this

Ben Jones

so we have a board of directors

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

just like any company or, or business does. So, , the board of directors was looking for a new CEO, and that's the, that's a hired staff position. So, , I wa- at the time had been working for almost 15 years with our state wildlife agency overseeing habitat programs there as habitat division chief for the Pennsylvania Game Commission.

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

we had done a lot of work building public-private partnerships with groups like the Ruffed Grouse Society when I was on the public sector, the state side. So I was really interested in what RGS and AWS and, and all the conservation groups, the Nature Conservancy, Pheasants Forever, what everybody had going on. And there was this opportunity when this position was it was posted as a vacancy, CEO of the Ruffed Grouse Society. really interested in learning more about where RGS wanted to go because as someone who's always been interested in the forest wildlife management side, and that's really the, the core

Tyce

Sure

Ben Jones

does, , I wanted to learn more about the opportunity and take what we had done in Pennsylvania, and if there was an opportunity to, to kind of take that show on the road through the Ruffed Grouse Society, I was really keen to do it. so that aligned with the vision that the board of directors had, and, , short story kind of long, I got hired in, , May-- April, May of 2018, and started June 4th or so that year

Tyce

Oh, cool. That's awesome, man. Thanks for giving that

Ben Jones

was a competitive thing. They had a national search for firm out there doing it, and, , held a bunch of, of interviews. And like I said, we just had really good alignment and I've had am- amazing support from the board of directors in what we've done over the past few years

Tyce

. Did you went, did they have any arm wrestle matches for the, for the position or something?

Ben Jones

I didn't have to arm wrestle anybody, no. It was, it was all kind of under wraps who was even applying. I found

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

some, , , friends and colleagues had applied

Tyce

Oh, really? Oh, okay. Well, hopefully you rubbed that one in their face a little bit. You got it.

Ben Jones

No. No, that's the thing about the wildlife conservation community, man. It's such a small world, you know? And,

Tyce

I bet

Ben Jones

your network is really tight, and people you meet, you're gonna run into them again. So none of that. No arm wrestling, no nose rubbing

Tyce

No, the hunting community is really, it's a really a small world, man. You start talk- I mean, I know I, I, again, I train gun dogs for a living, been doing that for 20 years and, and, , man, my clients know someone that knows someone that knows so- you know, it's so interconnected. So we gotta do a good job for training these dogs, otherwise we'll be out of business pretty quick, you know? So

Ben Jones

For sure. And it, it, it bleeds over into that kind of small hunting world and the conservation professional world and the bird dog training world.

Tyce

Mm-。

Ben Jones

this all comes together with a, an English setter that I have,

Tyce

Mm-。

Ben Jones

she comes from a line of dogs known as couple different names. One w- is the Michigan DNR line,

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

the Department of Natural Resources, or the, or the biologist line of Michigan dogs. And what this was was some biologists and foresters who over the past four, going on five decades, have been breeding and training, , top-notch grouse and woodcock dogs.

Tyce

.

Ben Jones

Dogs

Tyce

using them for count, counting grouse or, or hunting or a combination obviously?

Ben Jones

specifically for hunting because so many of us in the field are also avid hunters as well.

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

this six-year-old setter that I have is from the Michigan DNR line, and I

Tyce

Oh, that's cool

Ben Jones

b- because this, it's this inter-crossing of my professional

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

passions,

Tyce

Yeah, yeah

Ben Jones

it's really cool to know that these foresters and biologists over the years, who are managing millions of acres in the state of Michigan, had such a keen interest in bird dogs too.

Tyce

Yeah. That's so fun to hear. Yeah, it's, , that, that really tie- That, I can see how it feels like it ties your job and the dogs, everything back to people before you, you know? It's like, "Dude, I ha- I got this bloodline from these guys that did the same job," and that's pretty special.

Ben Jones

Absolutely, man.

Tyce

So yeah. Well, tell us, let's, tell us, tell us about your background in hunting. Did you grow up hunting? Did you, are you, , what, what's your background in hunting?

Ben Jones

Yeah earliest memories, , seriously, earliest memories. I can just remember being attracted to... I remember my uncle had this, you know, the, in the '70s, this old wood gun case with the glass doors, and there was this tan deer hide and some turkey feathers in there. Man, I just remember being a little kid just like,

Tyce

That's awesome.

Ben Jones

Just, just drawn to it,

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

that was it. Every minute outside in the creek, running around in the woods. And in those days, you know, I tell my kids this, like, we had to wait. You had to be 12 before

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

go, before you could carry a gun or hunt.

Tyce

Is that for big game or birds?

Ben Jones

That was for

Tyce

Everything. Oh, okay

Ben Jones

And now there are these great mentored youth programs, so I've been able to get my kids out starting, you know, when they were late 9, 10

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

old. We had to wait till we were 12, and I just remember absolutely chomping at the bit

Tyce

Ja.

Ben Jones

to be able to hunt. it's been something that,

Tyce

Ja

Ben Jones

family did. My dad hunted, never enough for me. So the next thing, you weren't supposed to be able to hunt by yourself till you were 16, but I was 14, and

Tyce

I'm going for it

Ben Jones

"Kid, just go. I, I can't, like, take you every time you wanna go," which is always.

Tyce

Yeah, yeah. That's awesome

Ben Jones

we were fortunate enough to live in a dairy farming community where I could go out the back door and walk till my legs fell off on neighbors' properties. So

Tyce

What were you primary, were you hunting grouse primarily then, or were you hunting, or, or I mean everything pheasant, are there pheasants there and, or what were you hunting, I guess? Squirrels?

Ben Jones

in, in those days we had beagles.

Tyce

Oh, okay.

Ben Jones

having beagles around, so I think we collectively called it small game

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

, primarily cottontails, but then, else

Tyce

When you're little, you just shoot anything that's in season pretty much, right?

Ben Jones

Took the floater to wing and we'd bring home a mixed, a mixed bag of, of small game. And then when I was about 15, our neighbor down the road and a mentor of mine, Dr. Dick Soderberg,

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

"Hey, anytime you wanna come by and get Timber," his American Brittany, "out of the kennel and go hunt with him, you can."

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

Then I had a pointing dog at my disposal, fantastic Brittany named Timber.

Tyce

That's a cool name

Ben Jones

yeah, so then we were able to focus a little bit more on the grouse and woodcock side. And what we would do a lot of times was hunt rabbits with the beagle in the morning and then go get Timber out and hunt for grouse and woodcock. And, and there were some put-and-take pheasants at that time too. So yeah, all the things. And then deer hunting, great tradition of deer hunting in Pennsylvania, bow hunted, and I absolutely, absolutely love, loved to turkey hunt as well

Tyce

Oh, okay. Cool. Do you, are, do you still bow hunt today for big game, for deer?

Ben Jones

, I do, and it's mostly sitting beside my son now. My son, my youngest, my son is, ,

Tyce

Yeah, how old are your... 13. How many kids do you have?

Ben Jones

Three. My oldest daughter is 22. My middle daughter is 18. So my oldest daughter took to hunting. She now hunts on her own, which

Tyce

Oh, cool.

Ben Jones

, my middle daughter never really did.

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

and a bird dog lover, and my bird dog caretaker anytime I'm on the road and can't take him with.

Tyce

Mm- Yeah, nice

Ben Jones

then , he's, like I said, 13 and just completely taken with all of it, hunting and fishing and, and the dogs. Our, our youngest setter is his.

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

went two years ago to pick her up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, took a long road trip, and, , that's, that's his baby

Tyce

Yeah, yeah. I have a, I have five kids. I have a 17-year-old daughter, a, I have a 14-year-old son, and then he's my hunting buddy, and then, , two twin girls that are seven, then a five-year-old boy. So I had a pretty... I had a, I have like, we have a team A and a team B we call it, you know, so we got a little age gap there, but, but yeah.

Ben Jones

right. That's awesome, though. A

Tyce

yeah, my, my oldest kids, I'm like, "Guys, I'm gonna get you into hunting." And at eight years old they have their hunter safety and, 'cause we can hunt big game in Utah, you know, , at 12, but we can hunt birds before that if you pass your hunter safety. And so I g- I got, I was all gung ho and I got them, but then, but then you realize they can't really lift a shotgun very well at eight, you know? So then we had to do a single shot .410 and kind of work their way up. And, , my oldest daughter, she's killed a bull elk and she's only hunted big ga- she's killed, she's only shot at big game animals twice, but she's 100%. She killed a, an, a mule deer up in Idaho, 'cause you can hunt those when you're 10. And so we went up to Idaho and she killed a deer up there and then she killed a bull elk. , she drew a limited entry tag here and killed a bull elk when she was about

Ben Jones

That's amazing

Tyce

13. But then she's kind of, I don't know. She hasn't gotten in... Like, she, she enjoyed it, but then she hasn't, like, I don't know. She's gotten older. She hasn't... I don't know. The passion doesn't seem quite as much there you know? So, but my son still is into it and loves it, so, , I don't know. I, I go back and forth like, "Should I make my little kids wait a little longer?" So kind of like, kind of their like, the ant- the anticipation, you know? Or, 'cause I, I'm pretty... How am I saying this, bro? I'm pretty, I, I'm pretty hardcore, kind of intense. I have pack llamas and I go in and I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm like, "We're not coming out unless we get..." you know? I'm p- try to be successful and so, I don't know. I probably push them too hard sometimes 'cause I wanna, I gotta remember to have fun, you know? So it's that balance thing. But

Ben Jones

It, it totally is. A, a couple of things with that. I remember when I started, I by rights should have quit,

Tyce

Ага

Ben Jones

I didn't have any gear and, you know, and in those days I d- you know, fine, I'm long in the tooth, but man, we didn't have all the youth model everything those days, you know? And my feet were always cold, and I by rights absolutely should have quit. So I've always been mindful of that and trying, especially when they're smaller, to have them on some hunts where, I mean, it looks like a grocery store by the time we unpack our

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

we're gear up.

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

But to your other point, man, , I definitely noticed with my son this past season being 12, why that age was 12 back in the day, because his situational awareness, his ability to handle a gun, to really do things,

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

like a, a

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

at age 12.

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

the mentored laws here, like you have to carry the gun in for them. It's a lot more hands-on

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

which for him was like age nine to 12. But

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

I'm like, "Dude, you can do it on your own." I'm just sitting there.

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

eating the snacks and he's just hunting

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

pretty pretty cool

Tyce

No, it is I, I think I m- I may wait until 9:00, 10:00 to get their hunters safe. Then they can move I don't know. I'm kinda Yeah, I'm trying to I want to build. For me, I'm like you. It's just, like, I, I saw, like I just was always out in the woods, always hunting everything, had the BB gun, trying to shoot everything, you know? It just was like... And still to this day, I, I mean, I love it. That's why I train dogs, and I, I still get out, you know, as much as possible. I got a couple I got a deer and elk archery tag in Idaho, and I got a Utah rifle tag for deer, and so I, I big game hunt a lot, too, on top of, you know, obviously my upland hunting and, and, and, , big- and, , waterfowl hunting. But, so I j- yeah, it's our, our happy place being outdoors, right? So

Ben Jones

Yeah Yep Yep you're right though We have to be measured or just kind of aware of how how hard we're pushing it and if it's And with five kids I mean three kids one thing I can for sure say is each of them is an entirely different human being

Tyce

Yeah. That's what I gotta remember, yeah. I think you-

Ben Jones

So you you've you'd be doing well to have a a a couple of them

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

are as intense about it as as you are

Tyce

Well, my wife didn't come from a hunting family, so if they're not into it, I guess I'm like, "They got your genetics."

Ben Jones

Blame it on

Tyce

You blame it on genetics. No, I-

Ben Jones

sure whatever you do you can't blame it on you took them out too early and they half froze to death and had a miserable

Tyce

Yeah, exactly. I do remember one of those, my daughter sitting on a deer in Idaho and she's, her feet are freezing and I'm, "Oh, come on," just like trying to... I'm have- take her boots off and I put her in, you know, in a coat and I don't know, I'm like, "This is gonna toughen you up and give you experience." But I don't know, I'm trying to figure out that special equation for the last three. I don't wanna, I don't wanna mess them up. But my boy loves it. He's killed, and he's already a lucky guy. He's, he's killed a bla- black bear spot and stalk in Idaho. He's killed, he killed a 178-inch mule deer, his first mule deer in Utah, big, big old buck. And then he's killed a, he killed a nice four-point in Idaho, , when he was 10. And, and I'm like, "Man, you're, you've killed more." And he killed a doe in Idaho too, but he's like, he's only 14. I'm like, "You killed three mule deer and a bear." And, and he's, , he killed actually a second bear this year spot and stalk in Idaho, so he- we're having some fun.

Ben Jones

cool

Tyce

But anyhow, something I like to ask guests that's kind of fun is, , was there one instance, I feel like for everyone there is this, maybe, maybe not, but I feel like was there one hunt when you harvested something that, like, it kind of was infused in your memory forever? Like the first bird you shot or a squirrel or rabbit, you're like, "Wow." Like, was there something that kind of, that kind of hooked you, I guess, a hunt or something like that that stands out by chance?

Ben Jones

Yeah there's for sure one that stands out and I was already already hooked and I became obsessed with trying to kill a ruffed grouse and just it had proved to be a massive challenge for a young hunter trying to swing a shotgun I remember there were there were phases the first few grouse I flushed tramping around in my early teens you know you didn't even get the gun up then you get to a point where

Tyce

It's just super thick where you're hunting too probably or,

Ben Jones

man

Tyce

yeah

Ben Jones

right around home It was overgrown pastures and aspen thickets You know this is

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

grouse

Tyce

Sure

Ben Jones

So then you barely get the gun up and then you might get the gun up and get a shot off and I remember my pap my grandfather joking with me He's like You don't get the gun all the way to shoulder You just have to shoot from the hip I'm like I know Pap These things are fast But I was finally able one morning to connect on one and actually it was a bird took off out under this deadfall hemlock

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

launched out and I got the gun up and I didn't get a shot at it But I still had the gun up and there was a second bird

Tyce

Угу.

Ben Jones

and it took about five steps running out and flushed and I had already had the gun up from that first bird and I just remember as clear as day swinging boom folding that bird and my first ruffed grouse I ever killed It was absolutely seared in my mind a as a whatever I was 14 or or whatever

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

then like for me to kill a ruffed grouse on the wing was like

Tyce

Big deal

Ben Jones

dope yeah you're kind of you're you're notching up there You know what I mean

Tyce

He made it places in life.

Ben Jones

So the ruffed grouse have always been really special to me Anytime you can see one or hear one or get scared to death by one they're really really special birds So that hunt stands

Tyce

Yeah. That's cool. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, it's fun. I, I feel like guys like us, there's, I have them too, and, and, , I ask everyone. It's like there's kind of one moment, I mean, and then the rest kind of as you start shooting o- you know, hunting more, they, they kind of blend together. But some- it seems like there's one or two that really get seared in your, in your memory that kind of makes it special, you know? I don't know why that is, but it's pretty cool

Ben Jones

Do you have one with a bird dog specifically Can I ask you that one and then but we'll dial it in a little

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

with a dog

Tyce

So, man, I've shot a lot of birds over dogs now, but my f- I- my first one with a dog was I sh- I was hunting a, it was a private ground and we could shoot hens or roosters, and I had a do- a black lab named Lady. I don't remember the shot exactly, but I remember harvesting the first bird. , I had, I had hunted bef- kinda without a... Well, my dad grew up, we, we had Springer spaniels, but they really weren't trained. He, he just got them and thought they'd be, you know, good dogs, but they just were kinda, kinda chaotic. But, , the first one I had was, it was actually waterfowl, more waterfowl hunting, and I remember I was, ... There was kinda two, but the very first one I went out in the marsh, and my buddy, he's like, we're like, "Let's go duck hunting." So we're out on the lake here, and we didn't really know what we're doing, and we're hiking out through the marsh, and some greenheads flew over in the sun just glistening, you know. And, , we pulled up and we shot at them, and we didn't hit them, but it was like there was something so amazing about that, seeing those birds in the sky and, like, knowing you could harvest them, and it just, it just kinda hooked me on that. And then, , and then there was... You know, and then seeing all the species of, of, , of ducks. And then, , but the first duck I ever sh- shot, , I was... It was actually a, a, a, a gadwall, but they were coming around this little island thing, and I actually pulled up and there was a whole group of five or six of them, and I pulled up and I actually shot at the lead one, but I hit one behind it. And it hit in the water by me, and I was like, "Whoa." And I mean, my dad just gave us a 12-gauge, and I'm... You know, I started hunting when I was just, you know, 12 years old with it, and so these things, they kinda knock your teeth a little bit. But, , but that, that, that really, that duck was it, sealed it. And then the, and then the pheasants, I just, I, I started hunting so many chukar and pheasants. I mean, chukar was kinda my big thing, but I hu- I mean, I hunted everything possible, you know. And then, , and to be kinda honest, over the years, , grouse have really become one of my, one of my favorites. , because, you know, growing up big game hunting, you're walking around, like you said earlier, they scare you or, you know, and, and, and, or you got... You're out there hunting big game, and it's a lot of time people just, you know, shoot them with a, a bow or a rifle, and they somet- you know, we didn't really necessarily target them. You know, we'd shoot them with .22s or whatever as we're just kinda out and about. But,

Ben Jones

Yeah

Tyce

but when I'm... Where I train dogs, I can, you know, I have chukar and pheasants that we have and obviously pen raise for our bird dogs, but I can't raise grouse. And so, , so I, it's kinda something different and special, you know, that we can go for. And obviously being up in the woods and the cooler temperatures in September and everything, it's just, and the views, it's just has a place in my, a place in my heart. So either for cha- chasing blue or ruffed. I did wanna pick your brain about ruffed though. They're, I think they're, for me, they're kinda the hardest one to, to kinda pin down, where to consistently... Blues I can find them 'cause it seems like they're more of an ele- they're both an elevation bird it seems like out here. But , but the blues are a little easier to hi- they continually hang up high in the higher elevation, you know? And where the ruffed seem to be a little lower and, and , anyhow. But yeah. Are, are we still coming- Can you hear me okay still, Ben? Okay. Your, your video is glitching just a little bit. But anyhow, , yeah, so they, they got a special place in my heart, so I'm excited to talk about them more

Ben Jones

Yeah Well I think the key well I know the key with ruffed grouse is really it's that

Tyce

Habitat

Ben Jones

It's stem density you know

Tyce

on the ground

Ben Jones

Yeah and for where you're hunting it's gonna be stands of young aspen

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

the various shrubs that you have in that country And a lot of times probably for you when you're well across the the West is these what they call riparian areas these drainages places that have a little more moisture kinda northeast aspects But wherever they're at it's not gonna be a big wide open pine stand

Tyce

Exactly

Ben Jones

They need that high stem density cover and the same is true of woodcock in the Midwest and the East That's why they're such a mixed bag You often hear of people grouse and woodcock

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

in the East cause they live in the same places and it is thick

Tyce

Mm-. Yeah. Well, that's what I have now. I have a pretty good rough grass spot out here, , and it has... And that's what I look for exactly, that, kind of that ground cover it'll have. Like, I guess you'd call it, what'd you call it? Stem, stem cover

Ben Jones

Yeah just a a lot of a lot of stems A lot of upright woody stems whether

Tyce

mater- yeah.

Ben Jones

or willow

Tyce

Yeah. Yeah, well I'll, I'll find them in, , well, this area has some creeks and beaver dams, and then it has, yeah, willows kind of down through the bottoms of them. And then you have thick, you know, you have pines, but underneath we'll have some of that, , I don't know, it's not a s- it's like almost a pine bush type thing. I don't know what, I don't know what it is exactly. But then, and then just, yeah, a lot of woody kind of material cover that I guess they can hide in, in those aspen thickets and all that. And then I'll sometimes get them out in those kind of little openings in that thicker area too, I think, when they're out feeding and stuff and

Ben Jones

that interspersion of the real thick stuff And if it beavers are fantastic because to get this thick cover it's young

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

it needs some kind of repeated disturbance So whether that's fire or beavers or timber harvest I mean when we're looking at replicating natural processes that create this cover a

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

we do RGS and AWS is promoting sustainable forest management and timber harvest So you think about that beaver and a really neat thing about aspen they're clonal So that beaver goes out there and chews down that mother aspen tree of young aspens are gonna sprout up from those roots

Tyce

Mm-。Mm-。

Ben Jones

hundreds of vertical stems and that's what really creates that that cover that ruffed grouse like

Tyce

, interesting. Yeah, and some of the best blue grouse too I find is at that... Oh, what's the elevation? Seven, eight, 7 or 8,000 feet I think in elevation roughly. Yeah, up here. But then I find that the blues, like, one area I've done really well it's that young, like you said, that young aspen growth. It's just like a wall. But those blues, I, I believe they nest in that area, 'cause I'm hunting them, like, early September when they, you know, when the hunt just opens I'm getting into coveys, you know, groups of, you know, what, what I'm, I... They're that, I'm sure a lot of them are that year's hatch, and then it seems like they disperse and kind of move up as the, as it gets later in the season. So that, I could see how that, , that aspen growth is really important.

Ben Jones

Yeah that's ac that's across the range of early season depending when your season starts in state which it'll be s starting up in Wisconsin Minnesota here once we get to the middle of September But yeah it's almost can be like coveys at

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

that time of year cause those broods are still together

Tyce

They are.

Ben Jones

Or you know a couple hens and their broods from that year so you can get multiple birds But then once with ruffed grouse once they hit week or so of October they disperse hard

Tyce

Oh, okay.

Ben Jones

actually been referred to as crazy flight they just are genetically programmed and the switch flips and they are dispersing

Tyce

.

Ben Jones

it seems like sometimes it's almost just randomly Like if you think about it it makes natural perfect sense cause they've got to get out of that brood and spread their genetic

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

some other place right

Tyce

Mm-

Ben Jones

it's a time of year when you get a lot of reports of birds like crashing into windows or

Tyce

Oh, wow.

Ben Jones

cars because they're just They call it crazy flight They're dispersing midOctober that dispersal is pretty well done and then after that any congregations of birds are probably based on some kind of a food source that multiple birds then are keying in on

Tyce

Die ist

Ben Jones

super super fun early in the season when those broods are together

Tyce

Yeah, yeah. That's probably one of my Well, there's something special about hunting late season grouse and their plumage and, and everything, but then, , it is fun early season 'cause you can get more than the onesie, twosies, you know, or pair. And it, it seems like ruffs, they do, they're pretty They generally are one and two, right? After they disperse, th- th- they, , they're pretty And I guess blue grouse can be that way, but it seems like blues maybe hang out a little more together. What Is that kinda true? You s- you see singles and doubles a lot once they disperse pretty much?

Ben Jones

Yeah or I I'm thinking of one time when I was with a a close friend and mentor and my older dog went on point and she's locked down this point and

She's still on point and seven birds have flushed

Tyce

Oh, wow

Ben Jones

And she was pointing the eighth one that held the longest under her nose but there were eight of them right

Tyce

Is this later in the season?

Ben Jones

it was about the middle of the season It would've been about the third week in October I looked around there like you might think there was some kind of berry

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

or some kind of food thing right there I could find nothing and really no reason all those birds were still together that late in the season But you're right it's usually gonna be singles maybe two and it just depends how much cover there is if they're congregating on kind of food source

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

of day kind of stuff Are they coming onto a point in that slope where the sun is hitting early and they can warm up a little bit while they're foraging You know multiple birds are gonna find those same desirable kind of conditions and sometimes loosely congregate there you

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

So but and large ones and twos but could

Tyce

You never know.

Ben Jones

Yeah All right

Tyce

Yeah, it's, it's, it's animal Do they, maybe answer this for My understanding just this is all strictly from just hunting them out, out west here. Seems that the blues will move up in elevation, and they'll stay pretty much in the winter- when the winter comes, they'll stay in the trees most of the time, and they'll just eat the, , I think it's the pine cone, the young pines, needles or pine cones or whatever. And then the roughs, though, they still seem to They like to get on the ground still, and they Do they come down in elevation a little bit or no?

Ben Jones

not as much elevational movement and they are still foraging on the ground but ruffed grouse like blue grouse will also stay up in trees and their best food this is why ruffed grouse are so closely associated with aspen trees male aspen buds are super high in protein and and where you've got a lot of aspen ruffed grouse will spend a lot of time in trees budding on male aspen buds because they're just a super food source for them in the

Tyce

. Okay.

Ben Jones

So yeah ruffed grouse in the winter will spend a lot of time in trees eating buds too And the prime conditions there's only one weather condition that's been associated with ruffed grouse abundance And you hear a lot about wet spring dry spring which out west can matter for a lot of game birds The thing that matters for ruffed grouse weatherwise is the longer you have prolonged deep fluffy snow in the winter the better for ruffed grouse because they'll snow roost that snow If it's over 12 you know pushing 18 inches and fluffy they'll snow roost into it and essentially make themselves a little igloo

Tyce

Wow

Ben Jones

they can keep warm in there at night and then in the morning they'll bust out of that snow roost and forage

Tyce

Oh, that's cool. I didn't know they did that.

Ben Jones

lends to their survival when they can snow roost in the winter when it's cold anymore especially in parts of the east we get a deep snow and then not long after you get kind of this ice coat on it

Tyce

Not good

Ben Jones

That doesn't count That's not good because they can't

Tyce

snow or they can.

Ben Jones

down into it Yeah

Tyce

, snow, that's, I didn't know rough grass did that. That's cool that they

Ben Jones

Yeah it's a Man sometime when you see it it is really something to be walking along in deep fluffy snow and have a ruffed grouse blast out

Tyce

Out of the crown? What the...

Ben Jones

You'd think they scare the crap out of you on a regular day

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

just happened

Tyce

That is cool. That's cool. That's amazing. The blues, blues probably don't do that, I'm guessing. Do they? Or do you know?

Ben Jones

not sure about Bluegrass I would have to say no It doesn't strike me that I've ever read about them snow

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

the conifer use like you're talking about

Tyce

Do the, do the ruffs, if they're not snow roosting, are they generally in conifers too on the edge of aspen thickets, would you say?

Ben Jones

We've we've also found that ruffed grouse where there's mixed oak forests like in the central and southern Appalachians they'll roost down get down into oak leaves

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

to stay warm

Tyce

Sure, yeah.

Ben Jones

to hold their body heat in

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

can do that They'll keep the wind out But we even have them ground roosting in within deep fluffy oak leaves as of the same idea

Tyce

Do they, do they back up, like Bobwhite quail will like, when I ra- when I raise them in captivity, they'll like, kind of push their bodies up to each other to, to keep heat. Do you know if ruffed grouse do that?

Ben Jones

you don't u you don't usually see any of that communal covey

Tyce

Communal.

Ben Jones

roosting with ruffed grouse

Tyce

Oh, okay. Huh. Yeah, the last, the last, , we, our hunt goes till the end of December here, and a lot of people don't really end up... They don't, they kinda stop hunting them, I would say, after October a lot, maybe November. It kinda, kinda piddles out, people chasing them, and so it's been kind of a fun thing the last couple years. I've actually tried to figure them out late season a little more, and, , I had a great hunt. We shot, oh, I shot a limit of blues, and then as I was working down from the higher elevation up in the pines, , I was working down, there was a big, , kinda avalanche chute with a bunch of young aspen, , through there, and I ended up picking up, , two or three ruffed grouse, or a couple ruffed grouse on my way out. And so it was, so, so yeah, it was great. I had a good mixed bag and, but it was interesting to see the elevation and, and, and you're s- obviously spot on. You're, you're a professional at knowing these birds, but that's interesting that they're eating the... It makes sense that they're in that aspen eating that, that protein, those aspen buds or whatever, so.

Ben Jones

really key for him in the winter

Tyce

Yeah, and there's kinda oak, there's kinda oak brush on the outsides of the avalanche chute down lower and yeah, so.

Ben Jones

there you go again avalanche chute I mean there's there's a real connection with and again what we're working to do and what's a need and this is so clear in the West our forests need to be managed

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

we're seeing in in the West with wildfires and unnaturally hot and large wildfires that if we're not managing our forests then we're we're not having those healthy resilient populations of all manner of wildlife And we talk about ruffed grouse all the time as a bellwether species that if you've got ruffed grouse

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

your forests it's a pretty good indicator that's a diverse healthy

Tyce

forest. Makes sense

Ben Jones

Just in chatting about it how many times does it kind of come up this idea of forest diversity where yeah aspen mixed with willow

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

dams and little openings adjacent to older pines and that mixed kind of forest condition is that's what you need for all manner of wildlife and ruffed grouse are a great indicator of that And where you've got ruffs and blues together it's like wow you

Tyce

Yeah,

Ben Jones

things there That's a that's a healthy ecosystem you know

Tyce

yeah. Well, it's really inter- I mean, I've, I mean, I, I guess I really haven't thought about that. I'm just kinda chasing the birds. But yeah, that area where I'm hunting ruffed grouse is like you, like you're saying, is s- is such a healthy area. The deer and the elk love it there. There's obviously with that stem growth, there's a lot of, there's tons of wildlife compared to maybe some of these old, these pine forests that have, you know, their, the sun's blocked everything out. There's nothing underneath it. The ruffed grouse just aren't there, right? So yeah

Ben Jones

And and having some of those older forests on the landscape is is important but those older forests can reach their maximum wildlife potential when they're interspersed mixed in with these other age classes So if you think about like naturally occurring fire these fires would've crept down through the mountains They would've got hot they would've gone cold and it

Tyce

.

Ben Jones

this kind of patchwork mosaic Same thing with beavers

Tyce

Ja, ja, ja

Ben Jones

Well you know with beavers you've seen this where you've got a beaver dam and they're there for a few years and then who knows why they move on

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

Maybe they ate themselves out of house and home Well they ate themselves out of house and home but those aspen trees that they ate are now gonna start sprouting back

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

as you don't have too many deer and elk then it's gonna create that stem density

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

So it's all about dynamic kind of disturbance and just to me like the heartbeat of ecosystems They're always changing

Tyce

That's cool. So tell us, te- let's jump into Rough Grass Society. Tell us,

Ben Jones

Sure

Tyce

us all about it, man. Tell us what you guys do and what... I, I think we got, kinda got an idea from what you're saying, but how that goes about and, yeah, how... And then, yeah, let's jump into it

Ben Jones

Well what we're doing

Tyce

American Woodcock Society, right? You guys are, it's mixed together, I assume

Ben Jones

Yeah So we talked about this kind of mixed

Tyce

う ん う ん。 う ん う ん。 Mm-.

Ben Jones

what we're we're always trying to As I mentioned our core tenet is linking science with ontheground management So we've known for a long time that grouse and woodcock and a lot of forest wildlife snowshoe hare bears whitetails require forest management to have healthy populations How can we create that forest

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

just talking about And so to deliver that science we need to put people on the ground who are really knowledgeable about forest management

Tyce

う ー ん。 Угу.

Ben Jones

Western Great Lakes Eastern Great Lakes Northeast MidAtlantic Coastal Plain and Piedmont on the Atlantic side and the Central and Southern Appalachians So those forest conservation directors have multiple field foresters under them who are out there with agency partners like the United States Forest Service This is hundred and ninetythree million acres nationally of open forested public hunting

Tyce

Угу

Ben Jones

And so we'll tie in with the Forest Service and where they've got limited capacity for any number of reasons we'll hire with the Forest Service to work right with them on those national forest lands That's important for our members

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

we were talking about Michigan but I mean change the state name Wisconsin Minnesota wherever you're at our people our members are hunting on those public lands So if we can facilitate management on those public lands to improve hunting and r improve access that's wheelhouse for us And I mentioned to you earlier I was fifteen years with a state wildlife agency

Tyce

ー ん。 嗯。

Ben Jones

Grouse Society could really help me get work done as a state land manager We were overseeing management of a couple million acres and didn't have staff enough to do it all

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

other groups to hire foresters and help get that work done on public lands it was a it was a winwin That's a lot of what we do We work with our state wildlife agency partners the Forest Service the US Fish and Wildlife Service and this can differ region by region state by state We we go up to them we say We see in your conservation plans this is true in Utah ruffed grouse forest grouse have their own section we see this is important to you We see that this management is within your future plans How can we help you get it done

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

So that's really our approach across the board So we've gotta be really nimble In some cases we may need to hire foresters In some cases we may need to do any of a number of other things but in the end we're trying to get that management done that the science tells us the birds need

Tyce

Mm. That's cool. So is it

Ben Jones

support it all all the way man and these are crazy bird dog people If I

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

like there there's one stereotype of a Ruffed Grouse Society member it's you and me man It's people that really love to get out there with their bird dogs and their friends and their family and see those

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

work By and large that's our people

Tyce

Well, and you wanna see that for future genera-- It's a future generation thing too, right? You want your kids to experience that, and these forests take time to evolve. So you might not necessarily do, be doing it all for yourself, but for the future, right? So

Ben Jones

This is the humbling thing when you've worked as a professional forester that you're working on management plans that are 100 years in scope Well heck I'm only gonna be in the on this planet for if I'm lucky

Tyce

Yeah. Average

Ben Jones

like oh

Tyce

80, average is 80 for a man or something like that, or 78

Ben Jones

72 and a half whatever it is But certainly I it's humbling because you get to really face that Like

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

something here that not only will I not see it to the end of my career but in and a half I still won't see it to its end

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

So yeah when when you work in in this field that's that's right there for you But know it's also this you can never rest on your laurels either because forests never keep going

Tyce

Sure.

Ben Jones

growing They're alwa they're very dynamic

Tyce

Mm-

Ben Jones

got to get this project done then onto the next one so there's kind of a steady queue of good habitat always on that landscape

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

Yeah

Tyce

So is

Ben Jones

this little twoyearold that is my s son's bird dog is in her prime he's got plenty of cover to hunt Hopefully good Lord willing with me still

Tyce

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So to create this habitat, is it mostly, is it a combination of, , you know, logging to let more sunshine s- sunshine in? Are you guys planting, , stem wooded plants? Are you, is it bur- prescribed burns? Is it a combination of all that?

Ben Jones

Yeah it it actually is a combination of all that The With the core of it really being any time you can do commercially viable timber harvests that's when you can get the most bang for your buck Because if you think about it when we're doing this work to improve habitat it's putting a commodity product on the market

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

So we're not paying hundreds of dollars thousands of dollars per acre to say plant trees We're doing the work of letting that sunshine come in releasing those young aspen that are gonna come up after the large trees are cut

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

and it's not costing us And to the plus side the landowner be it the Forest Service a state agency a private landholder

Tyce

。。

Ben Jones

cases like when we're working with the Forest Service we reinvest that revenue from commercial timber sales back into more work either habitat or accesswise on the ground So commercially viable timber harvest is really core to being being able to do this stuff at scale

Tyce

Yeah, it makes sense. It's kind of a win-win. They, they harvest the timber and that helps the birds and, yeah, or helps, helps the... Yeah

Ben Jones

or or with with some of the value from the commercial sale of timber does that then set you up to have your fire crews making sure that they have the gear they need to include prescribed fire as part of the mix

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

So it it's really sustainable when we can include the commercial value of that timber

Tyce

So are you working with, are you working with a lot of state agencies that, right, that you talked about? And then, , are you working with lumber companies too in this? Or how, or how's that all-

Ben Jones

Yeah they're a close partner because as I mentioned our ability to really get a lot of work done depends on having those logging contractors mills that are gonna take the wood

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

and buyers that are gonna use those wood products that

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

So this is something that we're really attentive to right now and is a real challenge Our ability or inability to do a lot of work across large landscapes depends on forest product markets

Tyce

Mm-

Ben Jones

And we see that locally if we have a mill closure in addit in addition to losing jobs and impacts on that rural community that we lose our ability to move wood and get habitat work done with those local mill closures So it's something that I was in Washington DC this week like you may not think this but policywise we're always thinking about are there certain policies or legislation that we can support that are going to help local wood products markets to keep those mills and those r rural communities working

Tyce

.

Ben Jones

that's a whole different side of our business but it's really integral

Tyce

It's tied into it

Ben Jones

we can do the management Yeah Yeah

Tyce

Interesting. That makes sense. So if people, , you know, guys on Birddogs, clients of mine, people are listening to this, they are wanting to get involved, is the best... Is there, , kind of service projects that the Rough Grouse Society does? Is it more like, "Hey, just put your money where your, your mouth is and just, you know, donate, and we're gonna let the..." You know, 'cause obviously there's some heavy equipment involved and people aren't gonna be able to... You know, w- tell us about, a little bit about that and how people can get involved. And I know I looked online, it looked like the closest one in around here was a chapter was in Colorado. Are you wanting to open up chapters in mult- like Utah? If, if someone's like, "Man, I love Rough Grouse. I'd love to help out with this in Utah," are you, are you guys constantly looking for people to help open chapters in every state or what, what's that look like?

Ben Jones

Absolutely So we've been really focused on the core of ruffed grouse range and it deserves mentioning here that ruffed grouse are listed as a species of concern in over 20 state wildlife action plans

Tyce

Ja

Ben Jones

and American woodcock in 28 state wildlife action plans So

Tyce

Wow.

Ben Jones

species that are in trouble and it's primarily due this habitat loss and that the work that we're trying to do So we're really active kind of in this core of ruffed grouse range that's New England down through the ApAppalachians into the upper Great Lakes states But we would love to get started and it's gonna have to be a grassroots startup in the West cause there's a lot of opportunity right where right where you're sitting And we have a a chapter in Seattle so in the Northwest there's some opportunity in parts of Montana there's opportunity So yeah I think in the western states where it will start is having enough grassroots interest to have some people to get together and form a chapter And then from there like if we think about our chapters in Minnesota for example we just had a chapter do a trails maintenance day So that was tied to with the Forest Service to a larger commercial timber project We utilized some of the funds from that forest management then to improve the hunter walking trails and we had our members get out there and get their their hands dirty for a day or two doing some of the trail maintenance So you're spot on That's kinda that's kinda the model

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

have a local chapter I mean here's the thing 35 bucks and our magazine editor is running out of wall space from all the awards that our Covers magazine has been getting So

Tyce

It's awesome

Ben Jones

dogs and just wanna see some great photography and really great stories for 35 bucks in your membership four times a year you're gonna get Covers magazine sitting on your kitchen counter that you can check out I I think it's well worth it

Tyce

Oh yeah, for sure

Ben Jones

So just go to our website and join as a a 35 or a 60 member You get a great magazine and great way to learn more about us and what we're doing

Tyce

Yeah, I mean, that's really nothing. I mean, you, you like, you go to McDonald's and you spend 20 bucks, you know, on a, on a combo meal these days. It's like, well, yeah, 30 bucks and

Ben Jones

funny anecdote about that I can't even remember who it was One of our members I think in Wisconsin said I'd spend that much on a case of Busch Light and a bag of Twizzlers on my way to camp

Tyce

Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. So

Ben Jones

a it's a pretty good bargain and then spaced out four times a year you get a really nice magazine and you know just enjoy the articles But it's a really great way to keep up on the work we're doing

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

focus on that storyline of where habitat work's being done where the research is being done

Tyce

And being a non, and being a nonprofit, is that for, is that a, is that, can you have that be a tax write-off too? Do you know? I know you're not a probably accountant, but I assume.

Ben Jones

membership

Tyce

your membership, yeah

Ben Jones

at the 35 level The IRS wants you to contribute a lot more funding

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

to get your tax writeoff and we would love to talk to anyone who's in that that scenario because we we are a charitable organization and things like required minimum distributions when those come up in later years for your IRA we can help make sure that those dollars are going to good habitat work and not just to the IRS So yeah

Tyce

Do you know the minimum amount on that by chance? Is it qui-

Ben Jones

you're

Tyce

curious

Ben Jones

g so for charitable giving you're gonna be approaching 10000

Tyce

Okay.

Ben Jones

life sponsorship level

Tyce

Okay. Okay

Ben Jones

of opportunities for anyone who's in that scenario

Tyce

Yeah. No, that's, that's, , that's great to know. And then w- I know we talked about off online, I think, and I was actually surprised you, you know, , ob- you know, obviously this... You do this for a living, right? So, , but I... We talked about the money and where it goes and how much, and you said, you know, a, a large chunk of people's donation actually goes obviously onto the ground. , and, , you know, upwards of 90% or so, right? Or, or tell us a little bit. I mean, it's just so people know, not that 35 buck's a lot, but it is cool to know, like, hey, maybe 15 bucks of this or whatever goes to, half of it goes to maybe, you know, the bulldozer tearing down trees or whatever, you know?

Ben Jones

Well on aacross the board for our operations we're audited every year We have a thirdparty audit every

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

financial books and year in and year out we're at 90 cents on the dollar is going straight to ontheground work I think one example of that when I came in selected by our board of directors to come in as the CEO I had a They challenged me They were seeing opportunities and the challenge was tear this whole business model apart and see how we can have greater impact to do that we started doing it going into 2020 in that disruption we we just saw it through So coming out of COVID we had a whole different business structure for delivering ontheground management And so between about 2021 and last year we did over half a million acres of habitat impact

Tyce

Wow.

Ben Jones

more than we had done in the preceding fifty years So aand I think one of the things that talks about you know that kind of 90 cents on the dollar and our growth is that when I came on in 2018 we had 19 fulltime staff

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

Now we've got over 60

Tyce

Wow

Ben Jones

just about every one of those fulltime staff positions is fulltime doing habitat work on the ground

Tyce

Amazing

Ben Jones

growth has been gearing up to keep people working on the ground marking timber sales overseeing habitat projects and all that

Tyce

That's so cool. I didn't, yeah, I didn't realize that, , that many full-time employees. That's great. J- that just shows you're making an, an awesome impact and on the, on the land, you know?

Ben Jones

Yeah And and we're investing and and putting people on the ground where where they need to be So th those are the people that make it happen our forest conservation directors our forest wildlife specialists who are out there making this work happen on the ground

Tyce

So is there, , kinda a side note on this, is there more than one type of ruffed grouse?

Ben Jones

Mm

Tyce

kinda the same?

Ben Jones

So we can I'm looking up here at one of the the books on my shelf There there are subspecies designated of ruffed grouse kind of based on geographic isolation some based on color It gets really f it gets really fuzzy

Tyce

'Cause I've killed grays and brown tails. , so I'm a... Is that, is that, is that just a diff- It's like a black lab and a yellow lab or something. You know, they're kind of just that genetic coloration that

Ben Jones

Yeah that that's pretty much it Although

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

see is you'll see very few of the grayer birds in the the further east Like in the central and southern Appalachians you'll hardly see any gray birds Very rare They're more of the orangered in color

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

sense There's not as much aspen or northern hardwoods there It's more oak

Tyce

Okay

Ben Jones

leaves in the fall oak beech leaves are brown light brown reddish

Tyce

Mm-

Ben Jones

makes a lot of sense that there are more of those call them red phase orange phase birds in the central and southern Apps

Tyce

Угу

Ben Jones

into like northern Minnesota where it's all aspen and northern hardwoods of those more grayish colored leaves once they fall and are on the ground They're bright yellow when they're in a tree but on the ground they're kind of

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

more gray phase birds up there

Tyce

. Yeah, I think we get a crossover. I've, I've, I've killed both colors out here. Yeah.

Ben Jones

Yeah they're man they're all they're all ruffed grouse partridge pats ruffies whatever you wanna call them And you you could have some academic discussions about whether they're subspecies or what but I think it that just makes it all the more sweet this bird that at any time hunting in a place like Michigan or Wisconsin or New York State that you could have multiple colored beautiful ruffed grouse in the bag if you're

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

to hit them

Tyce

Yeah, man, when you're in the woods in the fall and the aspens are gold out here and you got some pines mixed in and that low shrub, it's, y- it... I took a v- I took a video last year. I, I didn't even share it on my Instagram, but I was thinking about it. It's just me h- hunting around with the dogs and, like, there's just no one up there and it's just beautiful and just the, the, the ground is gold and you have the green pines and that low stem growth like you're talking about. It's like this is, this is like when I, when I die and go to heaven, hopefully it has a lot of this habitat there, you know? This is what I'm looking for.

Ben Jones

The this time of year I'll get a lot of calls and staff will from people wanting the you know the season grouse forecast

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

And it's a you're flipping a coin really you know It's a You can there some states have drumming counts or numbers up or numbers down or whatever To your point just now I'm like what if I told you the forecast is poor Are you not gonna go

Tyce

Yeah,

Ben Jones

you should g you really

Tyce

Yeah yeah. Worst case scenario, you walk around in the woods, it's beautiful, and you get some exercise, and you get your dog out, and you see some deer, elk, or squirrels or

Ben Jones

The the forecast is those aspen leaves will be yellow and they'll be flittering in the fall breeze

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

and you should go

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

to go so go

Tyce

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's interesting. They do, , I... And I don't know the details of... I really need to get on the, the Utah Fish and Game on their biolog- their grou- I assume they have grouse biologists out here.

Ben Jones

You know I don't know, how they're structured if there's a specific upland bird biologist or some

Tyce

Or up on, yeah

Ben Jones

, but definitely the, , grouse are prioritized in the management plans and for ruffed grouse and duskies, blue grouse, they are specifically identified as the forest grouse

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

management. And, , U- Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, , and anything you read that they put out, they're talking about the importance of prescribed fire, the importance of habitat and, and interspersion, , the importance of disturbance maintaining those young trees and, and shrubs. So, yeah, ruffed grouse are def- definitely on the division's radar

Tyce

Well, you do see, we do s- qu- quite often there's barrels out for wings. You know, they'll I don't know if you guys have those, but we see, I see those. They're pretty much on the main, a lot of the main areas where you hunt grouse. They'll have them kind of the, the, the entrance of that road, right? So hopefully hunters coming back, they can cut a wing off. I think it's just one wing or something you throw in there, and then they're obviously getting a count and checking probably the age of the birds and, and, and those things

Ben Jones

that's mostly age. And it's key data, and it's a really cool way to contribute as a hunter to the science and perpetuating good management. You know, stop there if you have got a grouse in the bag, clip a wing off and put it in that barrel. That's awesome opportunity.

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

you feel like you're part of,

Tyce

Yeah, co-

Ben Jones

deal, right?

Tyce

yeah, absolutely. No, anytime I see that, I definitely... If I get a bird throw it in there and is it, , it's not the tail, right? It's just the wing I'm trying to think on.

Ben Jones

I think most of those are wings.

Tyce

Yeah, so they can probably tell the age just off the wings on it

Ben Jones

Yep. But, but you may s- see some too that, , request like a tail covert feather because you can tell, , sex in ruffed grouse by the, those feathers that kind of coat the base of the tail. Well, wait, which ones? The, these ones, like right here,

Tyce

Oh, okay

Ben Jones

top of them. So you can tell sex of the birds from those feathers. So

Tyce

So, So, how does that work? D- tell, help the audience. When you... Is it male, female? How, what, what are those feathers

Ben Jones

Let me see if I've got one

Tyce

if you have on the

Ben Jones

here. Okay. So with this feather right here, it's gonna be tough to see probably, but can you

Tyce

I can see it, yeah.

Ben Jones

spots?

Tyce

Mm-. Well, the white spots at the top there or something.

Ben Jones

And then

Tyce

There

Ben Jones

other white spot further down?

Tyce

Yeah, , it kinda looks like it's right below it a hair.

Ben Jones

Yeah.

Tyce

Oh, in the middle of the feather there, kinda?

Ben Jones

more in the middle.

Tyce

Yeah, yeah. I can see that barely.

Ben Jones

second beige white spot on these tail covert feathers

Tyce

Okay.

Ben Jones

indicates that it's a male.

Tyce

Oh, okay. Huh

Ben Jones

If it's a female, you only have this upper dot and none further down on that feather.

Tyce

So male...

Ben Jones

adaptation?

Tyce

Yeah, that's interesting. So male to female, or what? Sorry. Man, now I'm mixing up

Ben Jones

male two or even th- as many as three, a female just one

Tyce

Just at the top of the feather. The female's at the top.

Ben Jones

Yep

Tyce

And then the males, obviously they have the black kind of, , collar on their head, right?

Ben Jones

Yeah, sometimes that can be... I mean, if you kill a, a large male adult grouse, that's pretty easy to see. Let me see. This is kicking me off here. Let me log back on There we go. , yeah, so if it's a large adult male ruffed grouse, you'll see the comb, that orange-ish red comb above the eye. The ruff will be really pronounced. It'll be a much larger bird. Then it's kind of obvious. Where you kind of have to pick through them sometimes and look is when it's young of the year juvenile birds

Tyce

those juvenile birds, you'll still be able to see those spots on- they'll have those spots on... Okay, that's good to know, yeah

Ben Jones

Yeah, those tail feathers are, that's a good indicator. And then the wings are a little tougher because it's kind of relative. It's based on amount of wear and when the juveniles molt. But you can get to adult or juvenile by looking at the wings, so that's why the wings go in the barrels.

Tyce

Interesting. And then the, the two fe- the two feathers, the young ones, right? The two feathers in the middle of the, of the fan, those won't be full, fully blended in, right? Is that a, that's a young bird thing?

Ben Jones

yeah,

Tyce

They're like that.

Ben Jones

a juvenile male because we got, knew it was a male from the, that covert feather, and then it's broken in the middle.

Tyce

The band's broken.

Ben Jones

Yeah. , the, these, , tail feathers would be much longer on a, on an adult. Like, I mean, look at this dude. Geez,

Tyce

a nice fan.

Ben Jones

You know what I mean? Like, hold that bird in your hand, you don't even have to check. You know

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

that's a big boy grouse right there

Tyce

What do they, what do they live on a- Do we know h- how long they live in the wild roughly on average?

Ben Jones

Yeah, so if you take the average, most of them are dead before they hit two weeks old.

Tyce

Okay.

Ben Jones

that hatch to two weeks is a really tough period because they can't roost off the ground. They can't fly yet.

Tyce

Mm-

Ben Jones

So they're roosting under mama on the ground

Tyce

Weasels, everything getting after him. Yeah. Yeah

Ben Jones

under their mom's wings all night, but their survival increases greatly at about two weeks, 13, 14 days, when they can fly up at least a little bit to roost in trees and at that point they're almost fully feathered so

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

keep warm, dry better. so if you take the overall average, it's like six months.

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

Adult grouse can live several years and I was involved for, a good while with ruffed grouse research. We had a male that we had tagged as... He was an adult when we tagged him. recaptured him after his transmitter died and he was at least four.

Tyce

Oh, cool.

Ben Jones

a pretty old adult grouse.

Tyce

That's a lot to live through.

Ben Jones

Think about it. Yeah, he's out there drumming, displaying in the spring and like a target for hawks and

Tyce

Everything, yeah

Ben Jones

and whatever else. But so they can live to be four or five years old and I'm sure older has been documented but, , in most cases a two or three-year-old adult grouse is gonna be a really old one and most of the time the majority of your bag during any fall is probably... If you're having a really good year, it's because there was a good, , reproduction that year

Tyce

. Is there any domestic breeding of ruffed grouse to transplant, plant into soci- into the mountains?

Ben Jones

refuse. They absolutely refuse. This is

Tyce

Okay.

Ben Jones

part of the beauty of ruffed grouse. Efforts have been made to raise them in

Tyce

Captivity. Mm-

Ben Jones

it just does not work.

Tyce

. Just not just c- duplicating the habitat. What, what, what part of it do you know that doesn't w- just the... You can't put them in a flight pen like a pheasant. They just need the... What, What,

Ben Jones

man.

Tyce

They just die?

Ben Jones

The way I think of it is they refuse. Physiologically, what's happening, you know, they're really stressed. They can't af-acclimate to being in captivity. They can't acclimate to how they're being fed, even if it's natural food sources. They just die.

Tyce

Yeah.

Ben Jones

it. So

Tyce

An interesting

Ben Jones

can have ruffed grouse

Tyce

habitat

Ben Jones

that we're managing habitat for, , fully wild populations. The same is true of American Woodcock. And so, man, this is really important to us, especially with, with new generations getting into truly wild bird hunting,

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

, especially in the East. Man, this is it. Grouse and Woodcock are your wild bird

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

out there. It's really important that we make sure we keep 'em. And you know what? The, the ability to raise one of these birds in captivity almost becomes like an easy button. Like,

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

boy, it's really hard to manage these landscapes at scale. If we can just raise a few and, you know, throw 'em out there. That's not an option here. We've

Tyce

Ja.

Ben Jones

the hard work if we're gonna keep these birds on the landscape

Tyce

No, I think that helps, it helps, I think me too in a sense. It helps you appreciate the, how special they are, really are when you harvest one. They're like, man, this is, this is a, a bird that can't be raised in captivity. It requires this type of landscape, and it can disappear over, you know, if we don't take care of it. So that's, that's pretty... They are pretty dang special, , in the areas they live. Yeah

Ben Jones

where they used to be, where they are not anymore. Right here, in the state that calls the ruffed grouse our state bird, Pennsylvania,

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

are counties here that used to have ruffed grouse that no longer do. They are extirpated, extinct from those counties.

Tyce

Wow. So

Ben Jones

that's a wake-up call

Tyce

create... Yeah, absolutely. Creating that habitat, I assume the only way is to capture them and transplant them into their, that area. And do they do well with transplants or what have you s- seen with that? No

Ben Jones

Haven't seen any real successful trap and transfer of wild birds.

Tyce

Wow

Ben Jones

Once, once you lose those populations, trap and transfer hasn't been shown to be really successful

Tyce

Just 'cause maybe they didn't teach the offspring, didn't tea- the, the mother teaching those offspring where the food sources are? Or it's just, what do you think?

Ben Jones

This to me is one of those things that's just suffice it to say, it's just not, it's just not the natural way things are supposed to happen, you know? And in a lot of those trap-and-transfer you lost the birds because the habitat was lost. So then there was some effort to come in and make a bunch of suitable habitat. Well, did you make enough? Because with ruffed grouse, it really does... I was talking earlier about their dispersal. It takes a pretty large landscape. You're not just gonna be able to have a sustainable ruffed grouse population on 3 to 4 to 5,000, 10,000 acres. You need an entire landscape with diverse forest habitats where they can disperse to and from population. You can't have little pockets or islands that are isolated

Tyce

Interesting. Yeah

Ben Jones

trap and transfer, , multiple reasons. There's a lot of stress that's involved with the trap and the transfer and coming into that new habitat. In a lot of cases, you haven't done enough to fix the problem why they disappeared when you try to reintroduce them. Do you

Tyce

Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Well, I think this kind of comes

Ben Jones

So again, the way to do it is where you've got them, keep them.

Tyce

Yeah. Well, and that, and this, I think this comes n- this m- brings up a point. As a hunter, if you find a population of birds, don't shoot them all right? If you want them to be there, I mean, , you gotta almost have that self-conservation button that, you know, I don't You know, I'm okay to, you know, if you see a group, take one or two, and then let them go. Go find some new birds, you know, or hunt a whole new ar- whole new area. Otherwise, it sounds like if you wipe out that population there, maybe out of some greediness or excitement or whatever it may be, you might not be able to hunt them there again possibly. You know, unless some others disperse obviously into that area, but I guess it depends what you're seeing on the landscape

Ben Jones

Yeah, and it, it depends on, you know, I'm not gonna tell anybody what they have within the limits of legal harvest. But

Tyce

Sure

Ben Jones

for me personally, like if I've got, I've got a, a good producing cover, I'm, I'm not gonna wanna shoot it out. I'm

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

taking a few birds there. And then the part I'm really gonna enjoy is trying to find five more of those,

Tyce

Yep, exactly

Ben Jones

and having dogs on the ground and checking them out a- and looking on, you know, OnX has changed the game for

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

habitat. They're a great sponsor of ours. , OnX in states where the data's available will put the age of timber harvests on there so you can actually,

Tyce

Oh, wow. Okay.

Ben Jones

exactly where that young forest is,

Tyce

Is that a layer in Onyx?

Ben Jones

and Yeah. Yeah, for states that have the data available, you can get forest age as one of the layers. Yeah.

Tyce

. So

Ben Jones

helpful when, you know, you're kinda armchair scouting, but then you've gotta get out there and check those out. Like, oh, here's a 12-year-old that should be pretty good. It trims down the amount of time, road time, whatever you need to spend, but you still gotta get out there and see if it's holding, holding birds. So the point about shooting out of cover is, man, the really fun part to me is having a, enough of a portfolio where I've got enough places hopefully to hunt where, , I don't have to hit the

Tyce

You can rotate around. Yeah

Ben Jones

or I'm exploring new country. That's actually

Tyce

More fun.

Ben Jones

enjoy.

Tyce

Yeah. Yeah. That makes it special. Do they, , , what... , we got- we'll wrap up here pretty quick, but, , with the at- what age growth are you looking for then on onyx if people are looking at layers? Is it five years, three years? I don't, I, you know, I don't know

Ben Jones

It, it will depend a bit on the growing site and where you're at.

Tyce

OK

Ben Jones

if we're thinking about a core of rough grouse range, generally if it's a timber harvest, grouse are gonna get in there anywhere from four to eight years at the earliest, be able to use those habitats anywhere from 15 to 20 years at the latest.

Tyce

OK

Ben Jones

depends how fast that site is growing. On a really good northeast aspect growing site, when that stem density, those... that sunlight hits the ground, those trees are just taking off, they're gonna occupy that at four to five years. But it's also gonna grow out of good habitat quicker by probably age 15.

Tyce

. Interesting

Ben Jones

growing site, they might not get in there till it's about eight years old, but it could last till it's about 20. So it's just that window between after the disturbance when you start getting woody

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

aspen trees that are six, seven feet tall, the point where those stems start shading each other out, they start dying off, and the, the area becomes more open.

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

thick and dense. So it's usually about a 10 to 12-year period somewhere right in there

Tyce

That completely makes sense 'cause, , we, our, my previous house, we planted trees, and about 10 years in, those trees start getting actually kinda some size, roughly 10 to 15, and just, and creating more shade. And, and so I could see how, y- you know, we plant about 150 trees here on my property now I have, and I can see how that is that growth. It, that makes sense, that timeframe, what you're talking about, just seeing the trees I've planted and how they grow and, and how much sunlight they'll probably start blocking out at that, that point and everything, so.

Ben Jones

Right. And, and an aspen will grow much quicker because it's already got a full root system because its roots sprouted off of that parent tree.

Tyce

Mm-. Yeah

Ben Jones

of it that way, a tiny aspen doesn't have a tiny little root, it has the parent tree's root

Tyce

that, yeah

Ben Jones

aspens could grow very quickly

Tyce

Yeah, that makes sense. Couple other things before we wrap up. Ruffed grouse. Okay, I guess I don't think I've ever thought about the name. The ruff is the, that's the part on their ne- neck? Is that the, the black feathering, that's

Ben Jones

That's

Tyce

the ruffs?

Ben Jones

Yep

Tyce

Okay. I guess I haven't even really thought in the name where that, when you mentioned that, the ruffs. Okay

Ben Jones

I, I was at a, a gathering this weekend and some and, like, people who should know, but heard many times about sightings of ruffled grouse. There's no L in there.

Tyce

Ruffled.

Ben Jones

This is... We're, we're here to take the L out of ruffed grouse, right?

Tyce

I've never heard of that one, but you know. I mean

Ben Jones

Oh, man.

Tyce

grouse.

Ben Jones

Listen

Tyce

heard someone say that, but

Ben Jones

it. Listen for it

Tyce

ruffled. I'll, I'll correct them if they say that. "Hey, ruffled, man. Come- it's roughed."

Ben Jones

Yeah.

Tyce

So and then

Ben Jones

got

Tyce

and then drumming, that's particularly just in the spring, right? Or do you... Do- will they drum through in the fall a little bit too, or just

Ben Jones

Well, drum in the fall. We're gonna come back to this dispersal thing. If I'm an adult male grouse and I'm hanging out in mid-October and all of a sudden there's a bunch of interlopers coming through my territory trying to find a territory of their own,

Tyce

Mm-

Ben Jones

might set up and drum a little bit just to let everybody know, "Hey

Tyce

This is my area.

Ben Jones

got camp set up right

Tyce

Oh, okay

Ben Jones

see, you will hear some drumming in the fall, especially during those dispersal events. Yeah

Tyce

Yeah. It's fun being out in the woods and hearing that drumming, 'cause pe- I'll be, I'll take people that are, you know, if they're new or kids, like, "Is that a lawnmower starting?" You know, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. And it's like, and it's, it's pretty cool to hear, hear them and I, I, you know, I don't see it that often. It's kinda, I don't know. I've, I've seen a- I have seen it, but you hear it a lot more than you see them. I don't know if they see you coming or hear you or whatever, you know, but

Ben Jones

have to try it, but I have never been able to get a bird dog to pin down a drumming grouse. And if you think about it, man, they're up on that platform, it's usually a log, can be a rock or a stump, the drumming log,

Tyce

Mmhmm

Ben Jones

platform is set up so they can broadcast that sound. can see other grouse coming to them, especially in the spring because the females will come to them to mate.

Tyce

Sure.

Ben Jones

see predators from that perch, 'cause they're exposed out on this thing displaying.

Tyce

Yeah

Ben Jones

when they're on that drumming log.

Tyce

Makes sense. Yeah. Hawk, birds of... Cooper's hawks probably hit him, hit, try to hit him a lot on that and

Ben Jones

Just launching through there. And

Tyce

yeah.

Ben Jones

high stem density really helps

Tyce

They can get into it quick

Ben Jones

with a woods hawk like a Cooper's, if these stems are this far apart, you know, he's got room to navigate through there and hit that grouse. If they're like this,

Tyce

Mm-.

Ben Jones

it's that protective cover that grouse really need. And the forest hawks are, are really adept predators at ruffed grouse

Tyce

Mm-. The Goss and the Coopers and pro... Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well, we better wrap it up, Ben. ,

Ben Jones

Don't worry.

Tyce

thank, thanks so much for coming on the podcast, man. It's fun picking, picking your brain about these special birds. They're kind of this, I don't know, I was talking to, yeah, I was talking to actually the, the bearded uplander on a podcast just yesterday, and he's like, "Yeah, those ruffed grouse, they're the hardest ones to kinda sometimes, you know, figure out." But I think that's what kinda makes them special is finding that, like you say, that habitat and hunting out there. And tell us, tell us again before we wrap it up, this is obviously about the Ruffed Grouse Society, Wood- Woodcock Society and everything involved. Tell us where, where, how do pe- how people can find you, get involved, and if they wanna open up a chapter here in Utah and, and, , yeah, tell us all the spots to find you

Ben Jones

Yeah, just go to the website, roughgrasssociety.org. Also check us out on Instagram. We're out there on Facebook as well, but really we keep up with our, , our social media presence of things that's going on on Instagram, so that's a great way to check us out. Follow us there. Check out our website and join.

Tyce

Join

Ben Jones

to have you join. If you join a base level, 35 bucks. Conservation member is 60 bucks. You get a great magazine, get to keep up with what we've got going on and, and learn about us, and be a part of a community of people that, that, you know, enjoys the same thing as you do

Tyce

Yeah. Cool. Well, folks, go ahead and support, yeah, Ruffed Grouse Society. We really appreciate it. Like I say, it's, ... You know, if we don't do it, no one else is going to do it, you know? And that's, that's a, it's a line we gotta kinda live by and, you know, I think there's a point in our lives where it's like Mom and Dad aren't gonna do it anymore. We gotta step up to the plate and, and put that... You know, instead of going to McDonald's, you know, a couple times or something, let's, let's help, let's help out Ruffed Gr- Grouse Society and Woodcock Society and, and, , so we can enjoy these things forever, you know, for a long time to come

Ben Jones

us. Love to have you under the tent, man,

Tyce

So cool. Appreciate it, man. Have a great day and, , and thanks again for your time

Ben Jones

Tys, thanks so much. It was a pleasure to be here. Let's do it again.

Tyce

Okay, man. Sounds great.